Donna Maree Hanson, Author, Phd in Creative Writing

Ian McHugh is an accomplished writer, winning the Writers of the Future award. As well as selling short stories to professional and semi-professional publications, he is also is very generous in sharing his experience and writing insights with others. He is a key figure in the Canberra Speculative Fiction Guild and basically a really good guy.  He is currently coordinating the CSFG novel critiquing group, among other things. I wanted to interview him because we had beta read the same novel and his comments were extremely insightful so I thought his views would be helpful to writers and those thinking of using beta readers or becoming a beta reader. Ian McHugh keeps a blog here.

1. What do you see as the key role for a beta reader?

To help the author find the problems and potential in their book that they’re too close to see for themselves, and to affirm the strengths in their writing and storytelling (that they may or may not be aware of, or entirely convinced of).

 2. What are the types of things you look for when beta reader?

I tend to structure my feedback under a number of headings:

– Plot and structure

– Characters and relationships

– Conflict, tension and threat

– Worldbuilding

– Writing Style

(We’re using these headings in the CSFG novel crit group this year, and it seems to have been useful.)

I tend not to go looking for particular stuff to write under each header. I wait to see what stands out – eg, an aspect of the world that I find implausible, a character I don’t find sympathetic, a plot device that I think is too obvious. Or, of course, a character I think is awesome, an action sequence that kicks arse, a well-executed plot revelation etc.

Often I find that it’s the apparent absences, rather than what’s there, that most catch my attention – eg, a lack of tension at a certain point, an undeveloped relationship between two characters, no obvious protagonist.

I find that structuring my crits under headings helps me to organise my thoughts, although a lot of comments cut across the different sections, too – a lack of strong plot direction and lack of a protagonist go together, unsympathetic characters undermine tension.

Yeah, characters affect pretty much everything, actually.

I also jot down my reactions while reading, particularly to anything that jolts me out of the story, and provide these as well in a line-by-line list.

 3. What is the most difficult part of providing feedback when beta reading?

A) Tempering my inclination to be a smart-arse when saying something uncomplimentary about someone’s manuscript, and expressing myself purely constructively and with sensitivity to their feelings instead.

It’s a lifelong battle and I don’t win every skirmish.

B) The other most difficult part is, when I see and am excited by (what I think is) unrealised potential in some aspect of a story, staying on the right side of the fine line between (i) offering constructive suggestions in case they spark something for the author, and (ii) re-writing their story for them. So:

GOOD: I think there could be some more tension when the ranger and the barbarian go into the dragon’s cave, for example, if you draw out the uncertainty more over whether the dragon is asleep or awake, or the dragon isn’t where they expect it to be and it’s stalking them instead.

BAD: Oo, oo, instead of the ranger and the barbarian going into the cave to slay a dragon, it should totally be a horde of goblins with two or three cave trolls instead. Really huge cave trolls that ate the dragon. That’d be awesome. And the ranger should die. Awesome.

 4. What is the best part about providing feedback when beta reading?

A) Reading a story that is already awesome, and having that to say to the author.

B) When one of my suggestions makes lightning in the author’s brain, and excites them about their next draft.

 5. As a beta reader what benefit do you get in providing critique?

Accumulating reciprocal novel-reading favours.

6. Is beta reading useful to you as a writer?

I think that in getting your work critted, you tend to learn what you need to do to fix that particular story. Whereas, when you’re critically reading someone else’s work, and thinking hard to figure out exactly what it is that seems like it’s not working and why, you’re learning about writing and storytelling generally. So, fingers crossed, critting is making me a better writer.

Ian thanks for that. An excellent perspective to help tie up the series. I find I’m in accord with most of what you say. I have something to learn about structuring my feedback and I will take on board some of your approaches.

Donna

Kaaron Warren and I go way back. Kaaron has published over 70 short stories in about 20 years, has had three novels and three short story collections published. She is renowned for her horror writing, but if you read all of her work you will realise that she is a versatile writer able to write across many genres. Personally, I’m in awe of her ability to think and write outside the square and placing a very unique stamp on her work. You can find out more about Kaaron here.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

I’ve used beta readers for as long as I’ve been writing stories. I wrote a novel at 14 and handed it out to trusted friends for feedback! These days, I have three or four readers for longer pieces, and often only one for a shorter piece.

2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

They identify plot flaws. Let you know if characters resonate with them. Tell you the logic flaws and the gaps in your research. Make suggestions for improvements in plot, naming and pacing.

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

Sometimes they do, and if so you know you probably should listen to them. Other times, they pick up small things, and rarely replicate these. I think this is because we all have different experiences in life, and we have different levels of knowledge as well.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I take what comes. My three main readers are honest and direct, and none of them are writers. I look to them purely for the readers’ opinion and I think this works very well for me. They are all three instinctive story-tellers, though, because they will identify issues any long-term writer would pick up.

5. Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

Often they’ll see a very early draft, before deadlines are looming too hard. This helps me identify issues early in the piece, rather than later when the panic starts to hit

6. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

It’s tricky. You have to respect the person’s opinion, and they have to have the time to give it to you! Not everyone agrees on what makes a good story, so you need to keep trying until you find someone who will give their opinion without trying to change what you’re doing.

7. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Be honest and direct, but not cruel. I hate sarcastic comments in the margins!

If it occurs to you, note it down, but with a question mark if you’re not sure.

Don’t try to take over the story, or change it to the way you would have written it, unless the story falls very badly and you can clearly see where it should feel. Keep yourself out of it.

If you really love something, make a note. There have been times these little notes have sustained me through the next draft, and they are an indicator of what works.

Thank you Kaaron for responding to the questions.

Karen Miller has kindly agreed to be interviewed and she has provided some in-depth answers on her views on beta readers and the writing process.
Karen is one of the most hardworking authors I know. I have known her to spend a science fiction convention in her room because she has a deadline. She is also very generous with guidance and advice to newer writers. Karen writes under her own name, ranging from her fantasy series, Kingmaker, Kingbreaker and the Godspeaker to Star Wars and Stargate tie ins. Under the name K.E. Mills she has published the Rogue Agent series. Her latest release is Wizard Uncovered. You can find more about Karen here.  Karen is the Australian Guest of Honour at the Australian National Science Fiction Convention to be held over Anzac weekend in Canberra 2013.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

The number of readers I use fluctuates from project to project. Right now I have 7 on tap for the current work in progress. I’ve always used at least one. No matter how much experience you have, no matter how many books you’ve written,  you can’t accurately assess your own work. You need an uninvolved outside perspective to help you catch the blodgy bits your brain’s skated past. And it does always skate!

 2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

Beta readers are a mirror. Because they don’t know the story, and haven’t been involved in the creation of the story, they can give you the most objective feedback on the story. A good beta reader, someone who focuses on the reading experience,  is able to point out what doesn’t make sense, what doesn’t ring true, inconsistencies, where they got bored, where they stopped caring, where you’ve made a factual error, where they were engrossed, which characters they loved, which they hated, and ultimately whether or not the story worked for them. All of this information is crucial to a writer, because we’re storytellers, we’re crafting a tale for an audience. So an idea of audience reaction to the earlier version/s is key to polishing the story so it can shine.

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No, which is the beauty of a range of readers! Nobody reads the same story in the same way. What delights one reader will disgust another, what one reader finds engrossing will bore another to sobs. One reader will believe something that another reader will disbelieve. Some readers are really good with continuity, others with structure, others with timing. So at the end of the process you’ve got this amazing 360 degree view of the work. The key is knowing how to interpret the feedback. If you find there’s a consistent theme running through the feedback, as in, everybody was bored to sobs in chapter 5, you can pretty much guarantee you’ve got  a rewrite ahead of  you. But if one reader is particularly sensitive to, say, violence against children, if they complain about it you might need to consider what you do. It’s a case of weighing personal preferences against what you’re trying to achieve in the story. A personal taste vs execution issue. You can’t write your story catering to every single personal taste out there, but you can do your best to craft the work so that readers whose personal tastes coincide with yours get the best book you can write.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

No. For me, the first rule of finding a beta reader is: Do they like what I do? If they don’t like what you write, even if they like you personally, there’s no point. Nothing you do will ever please them, and the feedback you receive will only be demoralising.  So with that on board, I just ask my beta readers to start reading, stop if they hate it, and make a note of things that jar for them. Every piece of feedback has value, so I try not to be prescriptive. When you know your beta readers, you know the things that will catch their attention, so I like to trust in that process.

5. Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

 Again, books are such complex things. If someone’s willing to give up their time to help me do a better job, I try not to tell them how to do their job. Once the first reading is done, if I need clarification on a criticism I’ll request more information. But because it’s a big job, and a sacrifice of time, and a huge personal favour, I try not to front load the request with a lot of rules and requirements. In between reading jobs, I’ll have a chat about the process if there’s been any confusion.

 6. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I’ve been blessed with my beta readers, and I didn’t find it hard at all. I think mainly because the people I’ve asked are familiar to me, they’re people whose reading skills I trust, and who I know will be absolutely honest with me. And also, I hope that I honour their hard work by staying open minded and listening to the hard stuff.

7. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

The biggest thing for me is that the people reading my work are readers who have signed on for my story. If you can’t offer feedback that doesn’t morph into you trying to get the author to tell the story the way you’d tell it, then step off the bus. A beta reader and editor’s job is to help the writer tell their story the best way they can.

Once that’s established, the next most important thing is honesty. You must be able to say what you really think and feel. There are times when a writer says he or she wants honest feedback, but they’re kidding themselves. What they want is undiluted praise. That’s not what the beta reading process is about, and if you suspect the person you’re reading for is only after a shower of compliments — again, step off the bus. And if this person is a friend, before you start you need to be sure that the friendship will survive your honest feedback. My primary beta reader is a woman I’ve been friends with since 1982. She puts red lines through entire pages and says, That’s crap, you can do better, start again. And because I know she respects me and the work, and only wants me to do well, and I know that, and I respect her ability to read a manuscript critically, it’s a great partnership. That’s an ideal beta reader. Fearless, and coming from a place of respect.

And speaking of honesty, accept that the writer might not take on board everything you say. Sometimes the feedback is about personal taste and not execution, and the writer must be free to follow their own story truths. If you’re going to be offended and angry that every point you make isn’t acted upon, step off that bus. Ego has no place in the process, be it the reader’s or the writer’s. But, having said that, if it becomes clear to you that your hard work is unappreciated because all the writer wanted was praise? Chalk it up to experience and move on.

Also? Most writers don’t want you to tell them how to fix what’s wrong. They just need to know what’s wrong that needs fixing. You need to be accurate and concise. I lost interest at this point. I didn’t believe Character A would do this, because back in chap 9 you told me this about her. I don’t understand how that bit happened. HIghlight what you feel are areas of weakness in the ms, then leave it up to the writer to do the fixing. Unless you’ve noted a concrete factual error, in which case provide the right info and then leave it up to the author to act on it.

Finally, don’t ever forget that this is a huge matter of trust. Stephanie Meyers had a beta reader who leaked her work to the internet. It was a terribly destructive experience for her, a really wicked thing for that person to do. Please, remember that you’ve been given access to something special and don’t ever abuse the privilege of reading a work in progress.

As a writer, I’d be in a heap of trouble without the talented and generous people who beta read my work. And as a beta reader for other people, I am so humbled that they’d trust me to look at their work and offer an opinion. When it’s done right, everyone walks away a winner.
Thank you for the interview Karen. I have included a snap here of Karen Miller taken at Devention, (the World con held in Denver a few years ago). This was a rare glimpse of Karen at the convention because she spent most of it rewriting a novel. She will probably smack me for putting this up, but hey, considering she had hardly any sleep or rest, she looks pretty happy and good.

Donna

After a bit of prodding, New Zealand author Russell Kirkpatrick has provided some answers to my questions. As we are friends, I can tease a little bit.

An award winning author, Russell wrote the Fire of Heaven series and The Husk Trilogy. As I have beta read his current (to-be-published) novel, I know there are some exciting things in store for readers. Russell has also published atlases and recently published an excellent (and beautiful) book called Walks to Waterfalls-100 New Zealand Waterfalls.

Russell keeps a website here.

I’d like to thank Russell for answering the beta reading interview questions and thus providing another perspective in this series. Thanks Russell!

1.         How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

I have used beta readers ever since I began writing novels in the 1980s, but I haven’t used them very well. At first I just wanted my friends to see how cool my writing was – and, knowing my friends, chose those who could be relied on to say nice things. Interestingly, I gave my first novel to my wife to read. Her comment was ‘They went here, they went there. When are they ever going to get where they’re going?’ Best beta reader comment I’ve ever had. I wish I’d taken more notice of it.

As for the number of beta readers I have, it has varied. In my first novel, for the reasons outlined above, I acknowledge a score or more. Since then I have used far fewer, maybe one or two per book. This is by no means ideal, but publishing deadlines mean you can’t wait very long for readers to turn the book around.

2.       In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

It varies according to the interest and ability of the particular reader. I recently received a detailed 30-page document full of the most wonderful and perceptive comments, offering me everything from an assessment of the overall story arc and the readability of the document right down to an examination of the motivations of, and interactions between, the main characters. Yet the example from my wife I quoted above is burned into my brain because it was equally useful, or would have been had I not ignored it.

3.       Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

Not at all. There is a wide variation in how people assess a manuscript. An example from my academic career might make the point. My Ph.D. oral exam consisted of questions from an internal and an external examiner. The internal examiner thought the first eight chapters boring but considered the ninth chapter brilliant. The external examiner loved the first eight chapters enough to offer to publish it as a monograph, but thought the ninth a waste of time.

That said, here is my Rule #1 of Beta Readers. If one of them makes a point, it is yours to accept or reject. If two readers make the same point, you must address it.

4.       Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I very much take what comes. It is up to each reader to comment on what takes their fancy. Of course, a mix of readers with different strengths is ideal!

5.       Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

Deadlines are the enemy of the beta-reading process. I write complicated multi-POV fantasy and I’m learning that I can’t write a whole book in a year, despite what publishers want. I’m always under deadline pressure. So I often get a half-page of comments from beta readers when I would benefit from more detailed feedback. The way it works is the closer to the deadline, the less I can change, so I need to ensure feedback on story basics comes early.

6.        How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

Anyone who volunteers to read your story and risk antagonising you by offering comments is a hero. Good beta readers are treasures. They are hard to find and must be held on to.

7.       Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

My advice would be: if something in my story bothers you, tell me. If you can, say why it bothers you. If you can’t, tell me anyway. Conversely, if something delights you, tell me, If you can, say why it delights you. I need positive reinforcement as much as constructive criticism.

Well readers we are lucky to have Kate Elliott answer a few questions about beta reading and how it assists with her writing process. Kate Elliott is a prolific and top selling author. She has previously written a seven volume fantasy series called, Crown of Stars and the Crossroads Trilogy. She is currently working on her Spiritwalker Trilogy. Currently, she lives in Hawaii. For more information about Kate and her books, check out her website here.

Thank you Kate for taking time out of your busy schedule to answer questions.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

To some extent I have always used beta readers if by “beta reader” one means a person besides the editor who reads a draft of the book before it is published at any stage of the process when I can still make changes to the manuscript.

How many beta readers I have varies according to the project. In some cases, the only person who has read the book besides me and the editor might be my spouse or perhaps one or two other writers who have had time to read before I do the final line and copy edits. In the case of COLD FIRE (Spiritwalker #2), I used seventeen beta readers all told, through various versions of the manuscript. I think that’s the most I have used so far on a single manuscript.

 2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

I think it depends on how one defines the phrase “developing your novel.”

I’m generally not looking for help in developing my novel in terms of someone helping me figure out in what direction to take the characters or plot and definitely not the world building.

Until my most recent novel, my spouse has read at least some and often all of my novels in draft form and made comments (he hasn’t had time for the most recent one). I have in the past often consulted him–and certain very trusted writing friends–on plot problems I am struggling with. “Should she go over the bridge or through the tunnel? What obstacles would each choice involve, and how would it impact her arrival at the bakery?” Such people have the ability to “talk me through” the process, usually by asking me key questions that allow me to figure out the solution on my own although occasionally they may come up with a perfect solution.

The key with this particular process is that the person I am consulting must be able to remove his or her own inclinations from the story. They might in their own fiction not have a bridge or tunnel choice at all but rather a street, but their input and interaction is useless to me if they simply want me to do what they would do.

For me, this is always the biggest issue with beta readers. An excellent beta reader reads the story that is there and comments on how well it works. A poor beta reader reads the story and comments on the way they would want it written. That’s of no use to the writer.

In cases where you vehemently disagree with your beta reader’s comments?

Don’t argue and don’t explain. Don’t say anything unless you are specifically asking for clarification of a point you don’t quite understand. Every single comment by every single beta reader is not going to be useful, and that’s all right. The important thing to remember is that your beta readers have generously invested a great deal of time reading your manuscript. They deserve your thanks. It doesn’t matter if you use 100% of their comments or 5% of them. In the very rare cases of running into a toxic beta reader who is trying to undermine and undercut you, let them go. Don’t argue and don’t explain and don’t engage. Let it go. We all come at things with our own issues. As a writer, we have to try to look past our own issues to see if the critique being offered to us can help us improve the manuscript. Sometimes it is hard to accept what someone has said (see below for the 100 pages I cut), and sometimes we have to stick by our guns and NOT change something to fit someone else’s preconceptions and issues.

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No.

Or, to rephrase, if they do, then I generally know that “it” is something I absolutely definitely need to fix. Normally, I find that beta readers will flag different things because they are different sorts of readers with different relationships to the manuscript’s story.

What this also means is that sometimes a beta reader is right and you are wrong, and sometimes a beta reader is totally wrong and you are right to ignore their suggestion.

It’s important to trust your instincts. I usually get a sinking sensation when a beta reader flags something that in my gut I know is a problem or, if not a sinking sensation, I may rather nod my head resignedly or even excitedly since I suspected or already knew all along I was going to have to fix that issue in a later draft. At the same time, sometimes I just roll my eyes at a suggestion, and that’s okay, too. In the end, it’s my novel and my responsibility.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

If I use a beta reader more than once, I tend to know what they are good at (and, for that matter, what they are not good at and likely to miss), so that is the feedback I am hoping to receive from them. I find that a mix of beta readers is useful because it will theoretically cover more bases.

Certain beta readers I can trust with earlier drafts of a novel because they know how to look past the things I’m not trying to deal with at this stage of the revision (some instances of sloppier writing that will get smoothed out in the line edit stage, for example) while other beta readers I deliberately give the last pre-copy edit revision because I’m looking for reaction to any potential confusing action sequences or odd logic errors that beta readers reading the earlier draft may have missed because they’re dealing with “big picture” elements like pacing or character consistency or plot shape.

5. Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

I have a couple of trusted “alpha readers” who, when called upon, will read early manuscript. This is often very raw draft and I am sure it can be in places quite hard to read.

Sometimes I ask them to read because I simply need cheer-leading, and if so, I will say so. In such cases, they will find things to praise, and that’s the feedback I need to move forward.

Other times, as with my most recent manuscript COLD STEEL (Spiritwalker 3, forthcoming in 2013), one of my alpha readers kindly told me that the 100 page sequence I had just sent her was a detour from the main focus of the plot. She was right. I cut all 100 pages and ended up figuring out a far better transition.

Some beta readers will ask what sort of a read I want from them, and this may indeed depend on what stage the manuscript is in. I may then say, “anything, I haven’t done editorial revisions yet,” or I may say, “this is the final revision and I’m looking for errors, pacing problems, and confusing descriptions” or something like that. Obviously if a huge gaping plot hole was still present at the copy edit stage, I would hope it would be caught, but I’ve not found that to be a problem. Again, a huge gaping plot hole is a really different issue than saying “I didn’t like plot choice X you made, it felt cliched to me” — which is an honest and potentially useful comment, but which may reflect the beta reader’s tastes. Again, the writer has to trust her own judgement. It’s easy to get caught up in feeling defensive about one’s work, and at the same time, it’s possible to let an inappropriate remark sway the vision you have in your mind. The balance always lies in trying to sort through your own biases and tastes to figure out if the comment will improve the story.

Because that’s what it is fundamentally about: improving the book.

 6. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I think it is hard.

First, I’m going to repeat what I said above: An excellent beta reader reads the story that is there and comments on how well it works. A poor beta reader reads the story and comments on the way they would want it written.

Second, and I don’t know how to explain it, but some people are just really good at reading drafts and figuring out what isn’t working.

Often, they are (as you say) good at certain aspects. I’m a good beta reader for certain elements but not for others. I wouldn’t be a good beta reader for someone looking for a line edit, for example, but I think I’m fairly good at analyzing pacing and focus.

I do think it is important for me as a writer to get a variety of beta readers so that I have people who don’t read and write just like I do looking at the manuscript. If I only use beta readers who approach fiction in the same way I do, they may miss things that other sorts of readers stumble over. So a variety of types of readers can be helpful.

It’s okay, I think, to try someone out on a manuscript and, if they don’t work out or give useful feedback, thank them profusely for taking the time and then not using them again. I really think there is no use in telling someone that their feedback is not useful. It really takes a long time to beta read, and a lot of concentration, so thanks are always in order regardless of how much of the critique you were able to use.

7. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Critique the story that is being written, not the story you think should be written. This is the third time I’ve mentioned this point, so I hope that with this third mention, it will sink in. You, the beta reader, are not writing the story. You get to write your own story.

Read and analyze the story that is being written, looking for such things as pacing problems, infodump, detail errors, confusing description or action sequences, sloppy writing (although I don’t ever consider it the responsibility of a beta reader to correct bad grammar and punctuation), inconsistency in character behavior, awkward plot sequences, logic errors, and scenes that are too short for the emotional weight they need to carry. Comments like those help an author improve her story. Ultimately, improving the story is the goal.

Thank you so much Kate for that in-depth response to the questions. You have provided some great insight and advice there on the beta reading process.

Regards

Donna

Marianne De Pierres has kindly agreed to be interviewed about her experience with beta readers. Marianne is also part of Writers on the Rise group ( a number of them have participated in this series of blog interviews). I’m a bit of a Marianne De Pierres fan, having known her now for over ten years. I loved her kick ass  Parrish Plessis series and also her space opera Sentients of Orion series. She is now also publishing a young adult series under the name of Marianne Delacort. The Tara Sharp series is a crime series. You can find more about Marianne here

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

For a long time my beta readers have been my personal writing group – six other people. I also have a two other readers who beta-read my teen novels because they are more the target audience. Of recent years I haven’t had a chance to use my beta readers as much with my novels going directly to the editor when they’re finished.

2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

 I doubt very much I would ever have been published without their critical feedback. In fact I’m sure I wouldn’t! They have been absolutely invaluable and I cherish them.

 3.    Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No, not at all. They read differently, some focussing on the world building, others on the plot or character or the tone or the style. I find this very useful.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

 Sometimes. Or I send it to all of them and say “please just focus” on this aspect. It can be interesting to say that to six different people. If five of them give the same response, you know they’re absolutely right.

 6.    How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

It can take a while. I think you need to suss out their ability to give critical feedback that you can assimilate. Listen to how they talk about the books they read and avoid people who have too much emotional investment in you. It can’t help but cloud their thought processes, no matter how hard they try to be objective. You’ll find that you and your readers grow together like any good partnership.

7.    Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

I’ve always found that if my editor and beta readers ask me questions, that works much better than any prescriptive kind of editing. I love an editorial report full of what does that mean? What happened here? Etc. I know immediately that I’m letting my reader down, and am inspired to “fix it”!

Thank you Marianne for taking time out of your busy writing and promotion schedule. It is very much appreciated.

Donna

David who is now writing under the name D.B. Jackson has been writing science fiction and fantasy for over 15 years. I met David when he and his family were living in a Australia a few years back. We’ve managed to catch up once at a Worldcon in Denver, which was very cool. Worldcons are good for that. (BTW next worldcon is in Chicago, called Chicon. Link is here.)

In very exciting news, David has a historical fantasy coming out with Tor in July. It’s called Thieftaker, which is set in Boston, August 26, 1765. Here is a link to David’s website.

Because I think the cover is very cool, I snaffled the image and put it here. I am hoping to get David back later for an interview about his new book.

1.       How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

Beta readers come in various forms.  For the first few books of my career, my main Beta reader was my wife.  She would read my books one chapter at a time — I’d finish a chapter, and she would read it, give me feedback, and tell me to get back to work.  As I started my second series, she told me that she wanted to try reading one of my books the way my regular readers do:  All at once when it was finished.  She still gave me feedback as a Beta, but by that time, I was starting to turn to my agent as a first reader.  And for the longest time, my main Betas were my agent and my editor at Tor.

Recently, I have been writing more books and stories before they’re contracted — I’ve written four books in the last two years that were not already sold, and so I’ve started relying on Beta readers more heavily than ever.  I have a handful of people — all fellow writers — who I rely on for feedback.  There are maybe three or four in all.  I don’t like to share my work with too many people before it’s ready, and frankly I find that after a while feedback from too many people becomes counterproductive.

 2.       In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

Like my editor and agent, my Betas help me identify elements of my narrative, character work, and worldbuilding that don’t work.  This is why I tend to rely on professional writers as my readers, because they know nearly as well as my editor, what kinds of issues can hold a book back.  For books that are not yet contracted, this helps me polish so that my agent and I can make the sale.  For books that are already under contract, my Betas can help me anticipate issues that my editor might otherwise identify, thus compressing the revision process and, ideally, speeding up production.

3.       Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

Definitely not.  Well, let me qualify that.  Sometimes my manuscripts might have problems that are so egregious, so obvious that everyone who reads the book notices.  But usually my readers will give me feedback on different things.  Just as every writer is unique, so too is every reader.  We all notice different things; we all respond well to certain aspects of a book and find fault with certain problems.  That’s one of the reasons why one Beta reader probably isn’t enough.

4.       Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I tend to gravitate toward readers who are good at noticing certain issues.  I don’t necessarily choose one person for plotting and another for prose.  But at this point I’ve been doing this long enough and have written enough books that I have a pretty good idea of what I’m good at and on which aspects of my writing I need feedback.  So, for instance, I have a lot of confidence in my character work and in my voice.  But I am less confident in my plotting, and so I tend to send my work to writers who I know are very good at weaving together narratives.

5.       Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

What I want from a reader tends to vary more with the manuscript than with the reader.  In other words, I usually have some idea of what might be the weak points in a manuscript, and so I might tell a Beta reader “Hey, I think that the plotting flags a bit about two-thirds of the way through the book.  Let me know if you think so, too, and what I ought to do about it.”  Or something like that.

6.        How hard is it to find a good beta reader? 

I think it’s pretty hard.  Finding readers is easy.  Finding people with the qualities I value in a Beta reader — that’s much harder.  What qualities do I mean?  Well, I want my Betas to be writers themselves, to understand that writing process and be willing to bring that experience to bear on my work.  They also need to understand the market. They need to be able to articulate their criticisms clearly.  And finally, I want my readers to be good enough friends that I can trust them to be honest with me about my work, and also trust them to tell me when they don’t have the time to read something.  The last thing I want is to worry that I’m burdening a friend who has work of his or her own to do.

7.       Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

I think the best advice I can give is to remember that when you’re reading for a friend or colleague, you’re trying to make his or her book as good as it can be on its terms.  You’re not trying to turn his or her book into something resembling your own work.  Rather, you’re helping refine someone else’s book.  I’ve been very fortunate to work most of my career with the same editor.  He understands my work and finds ways to improve my work without changing my voice or my artistic vision.  That’s something that my Betas have managed to do, too.  And that’s what has made their feedback so valuable.

Thanks for that interview David. I find it interesting that like Glenda Larke you are relying more on beta readers further down your career. Mind you, you do seem to be writing a lot lately. Four books in two years, why that’s just prolific!

Donna

I met Gareth in Bristol in late 2010. He was there to attend the William Gibson talk and is part of the Bristol/Bath and surrounds’ spec fic scene. The fantastic Cheryl Morgan had organised tickets for us for this event, which happily coincided with our visit to that part of England. (William Gibson borrowed my pen!) Gareth was a friend of a mutual acquaintance, Colin Harvey, who passed away suddenly in August 2011. Since that meeting, Gareth has gone on to have his science fiction books published by Solaris Books. He had a collection out prior to that through Elastic Press.

You can find more about Gareth at his website (he is also on Twitter)  here.

Thank you Gareth for being interviewed.

1.    How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

My main beta reader has always been my wife, Becky. She’s read and commented on the first drafts of nearly all my short stories, and I’d like to take this opportunity to thank her for her feedback and support. She makes a first class first reader, and I’m lucky to have her on my team.

In addition, my brother Huw and sister Rebecca (both novelists themselves) offered useful feedback on my latest novel, The Recollection (Solaris Books 2011), as did fellow writer Neil Beynon; and my wife and another friend, Duncan Harris, offered some feedback on my first short novel, Silversands (Pendragon Press 2010).

2.    In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

The main things I’m looking for when I ask someone to read a novel draft are: a) Does the plot make sense? b) Are the characters believable and relatable? c) Are there any dreadful typos or continuity issues that I’ve missed?

3.    Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

Mostly, yes; although sometimes there will be disagreements. The original draft of Silversands contained a sexual relationship between two of the main characters. One reader approved of this development, and the other didn’t. And as that latter reader was my wife, I ended up agreeing with her and the sex scene got dropped. And to be honest, its omission made the relationship between the two characters deeper and less obvious than it might otherwise have been.

4.    Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I pretty much take what comes. I’m just grateful that they take the time to read and comment.

 5.    How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I’ve been extremely fortunate, in that I know so many intelligent and literary-minded people who have been willing to help; so, I haven’t had the need to go out searching for beta readers, as they’ve been there for the asking.

6.    Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Allow me to refer you back to my answer to question 2, above. What I really want to know is whether the book works as a story, whether I’ve made any fundamental errors, and whether they enjoyed it as readers. Any other useful comments are gratefully received.

Thank you Gareth for doing the interview. 

Donna

Joanne Anderton is an exciting new writer. Her first novel Debris  (Angry Robot Books) was nominated for an Aurealis Award this year. She is also up for best new talent at the Ditmars and her novel Debris is up for a gong. You can find out more about Joanne here.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

The number of beta readers I have can be a bit fluid – it depends on what I’m working on. Sometimes I’ll need more or different eyes on a short story or a book. As I meet new writers and get to know them, I’ll take the opportunity to read their work and perhaps have mine read in turn. It’s always good to bring fresh blood into the beta reading gene pool! But I have a solid core of two amazing beta readers who are tough on my words and generous with their time. These two amazing women have stuck with me for years — for instance, they’ve read ALL the Veiled World books, and some of them twice! I’ve used beta readers since I first joined the Online Writing Workshop for SFF, many years ago. This online community introduced me to critiquing, taught me how to give and take, and through them I met many wonderful writers who remain my friends and beta readers to this day.

2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

Beta reader feedback is invaluable. They see things that I do not — plot holes, boring parts, big picture stuff. They notice problems that I’ve been trying to ignore, and don’t let me get away until I fix them. They bring fresh ideas to a story, help me see paths or themes or twists and turns that I would never have seen on my own. They’re also encouraging. They support me through the bad times and celebrate with me through the good ones. A good beta reader is like a good personal trainer! They keep me honest, make me work to the best of my ability and then push me that little bit further.

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

Yes and no. Most of the time no — and that’s the joy of getting different opinions. Everyone comes to a story from their own perspective, everyone sees different things. But when they DO pick up on the same points, then that’s like a little alarm. These points need work, they need attention.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes? 

Mostly I take what comes. I am grateful for any and all reactions. I do take genre and content into account though. If I know one of my readers isn’t too keen on really gruesome horror, for example, I try not to inflict that on them too much!

5. Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback? 

I tend to send novels out at a particular stage — a couple of drafts in. I’ve already gone through it a few times. Tidied up the first draft mess and made my own changes to things I thought weren’t working, such as plot holes, character issues and structural problems. I want it to read as smoothly as possible — I haven’t used a fine tooth comb on it yet, but I don’t want to send them crap either! And then I just ask them to have at it. Do their worst! That’s always worked in the past, but I have been fortunate when it comes to deadlines and haven’t yet been in a position where I’ve had to do it differently.

6. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I haven’t found it difficult at all. Holding on to the people I met in the OWW has helped me a lot. It takes a little time, in my experience, to get into a good beta reading groove with someone. To understand where they and their feedback are coming from. But that’s a wonderful part of the process, and one that can teach you a lot about your writing and your own critiquing style.

7. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Listen to your feelings — if you’re reading and something niggles you, don’t just keep going. Stop and think. What’s niggling me, why is it niggling, how can I communicate that? Be specific. Give suggestions — I’ve found that even a passing remark from some of my readers can set off sparks of inspiration in my brain. Don’t just mention the things that don’t work, talk also about the parts that do. And, hopefully, enjoy the process!

Thank you Joanne. I’m so glad you could join the interview series. I like your take on holding onto beta readers and how you treasure them. I worry that repeated requests will tire them out (even though I do treasure them).

Donna

Maxine McArthur kindly agreed to be interviewed, mostly because she can’t escape from me as we see each other at work every week. She’s a Canberra-based author, who has won a couple of prestigious awards, including the George Turner Award for Time Future and the Aurealis Award for her future Japan set cyber detective novel, Less Than Human.

Here website is here. She’s on Facebook and I’m trying to lure her onto Twitter.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

My main beta readers are the ROR writing group, which has been meeting kind of annually since… gosh, must be over a decade. Yes, I just checked the website <http://ripping-ozzie-reads.com/> and we have been meeting since 2001. This is a group of professional specfic writers who read each others’ novels and get together at a retreat to critique them. I trust the members’ opinions and instincts implicitly and I know that they won’t hold back if they see something wrong with a manuscript. I have shown the ROR group novels in various stages, from half of a first draft to what I thought (silly me!) was a close-to-final draft. I’ve always had brilliant feedback that covers all aspects of the work, from structure to marketing to grammar.
I also occasionally ask one or two good friends who are avid readers to read a final draft for me. This is less to find major problems as to gauge the readability factor; I want to know if they found it absorbing or not.

 2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

They save me from making a fool of myself when I submit a manuscript to a publisher, by picking up flaws ranging from structural (“this is really absorbing, but did you notice there’s not actually a plot line?” or “why is there no reason for the villain to do all these things?”) to copy editing (“you’ve started twenty sentences in this chapter with ‘And’–do you think that might bother an editor?”). Sometimes I’m too close to a novel to notice all the problems. Sometimes I know there’s a problem, but can’t work out what it is until someone points me in the right direction.
Without doubt, beta readers make it a better book. (pun intended)

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No, but if they do, I know I really need to fix it! Different readers picking up different points is particularly noticeable in a group critique such as we do at ROR, because often there is debate about some aspect of a novel. However, when all the readers do agree that, for example, my point of view character is unbelievably stupid and rather unsympathetic, I take careful note and go away to sharpen him up. This is why it is important to a) have readers whose opinion you can trust and b) be prepared to change the work. If you aren’t prepared to change the work, at least think very carefully about why you can’t do it.
Sometimes one of my final draft readers will notice a quite important point that has escaped both me and the earlier readers. That’s when they get an extra bottle of champagne.

4. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I know that certain readers will tend to offer opinions on certain aspects of the novel. One person might usually begin by asking what my intended market is, while another won’t mention the market but will always pick up plot inconsistencies. I don’t target as such, although I will ask questions about, say, the market, if I know that person has in-depth knowledge in the area. However, when I send a novel to be read, I usually mention what I’m having trouble with and if I need advice on certain things.
The exception is with my non-professional, final draft readers–I usually just ask them to tell me whether they liked the book or not, and why.

5. Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

At present I’m writing a full draft before sending off an outline, so no deadline pressure. In the final stages, though, I will need to send it to a reader who knows the historical background, in which case I will be asking them to check my research only.

6. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

You’ll probably find hen’s teeth first.
Look after them when you do find one who suits you and your work. I think a good beta reader these days does what editors used to do in the old days, which is to help the author improve their work.

 7. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Although an author may occasionally get good commentary from someone who is unfamiliar with the genre, I think that generally if you want to beta-read or edit speculative fiction, you need to have read works of this type. It’s good to practice with a published work–sit down and think what you would have said to the author if they had asked you for feedback on the novel. Most readers and editors have developed their own modus operandi. For example, I will keep a running page of comments so that when I’m reading I jot down any thoughts, then go back to that and structure the comments for the author. I don’t divide the feedback into ‘character’, ‘plot’ etc the same way with every book, because each novel has its own problems and has to be dealt with differently. But in the feedback I will usually give a summary of my impressions, what I liked, and the main issue that I found. Then I’ll go into detail, and finish with any constructive comments as to how the author might approach a solution.

Thank you,  Maxine. That’s excellent.  I know I have appreciated your comments on my manuscripts.

Donna