Donna Maree Hanson, Author, Phd in Creative Writing

Richard Harland has kindly agreed to be interviewed for this series of blog posts. Although Richard had not heard the term ‘beta reader’ before. We discussed this and decided that ‘sample’ reader is a close approximation and also feedback from his peers. Richard is a member of RoR, the group of professional writers who critique each other’s work that Margo Lanagan belongs to.

Richard is the author of  Worldshaker and Liberator, among other novels. He has heaps of writing advice up on his ‘writing tips’ page, reportedly some 145 pages of advice. Richard has been writing a long time so feel free to pop over and take advantage of his advice.  His website is here and the writing tips are here.

Richard Harland

1.       How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

I use three kinds of readers. Sample readers are just ordinary readers – closest to the people who’ll eventually be reading my book. I reckon that ought to make them alpha readers, the most important of all in the end! Then there are author readers, who give a different kind of feedback in critique groups. Lastly, the professional editors, whose opinions you have to listen to – you can negotiate what to change or not change, but you can’t tell them to go jump. Or, you can, but you’ll only ever do it once!

I’ve had professional editors since I started getting published, and I’ve been in critique groups ever since my poetry-writing. Perhaps mostly as a social thing, because I wasn’t very good at listening to advice back than. (I was a poet – say no more!)

 2.       In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

I’ve said something about this in my guide to writing speculative fiction at www.writingtips.com.au. Authors in critique groups aren’t very reliable, because they’re always thinking of how they’d write the story themselves. But they’re the best for creative inspiration and opening up your mind to other possibilities. Even when you don’t take the particular path they suggest, it’s wonderfully liberating to see that there are other paths.

Professional editors also don’t read quite like ordinary readers; they read with half an eye on the market and how other people will react. But the best for articulating and explaining problems over what isn’t working; they can zoom in on, say, a lack of tension, and find the real causes behind it. They’re also the best for practical advice, over continuity, motivation – the basic thing it’s easy to lose track of when you’re caught up in the flow of the story.

Sample readers are the ultimate touchstone,the gold standard – only you have to work on them! You have to ignore praise, you have to dig beneath friendship or politeness – and most of all you have to prompt them. Like ordinary readers, they don’t think much about the whys and wherefores. Not enthralled with that chapter, that character – yes, but why? Check what one ordinary sample reader says against what others have said – and probe, probe, probe!

3.       Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

You’re joking! No, even professional editors often contradict one another. I always reckon that, if one reader has a problem, maybe that’s just their problem – could be they have an individual prejudice, a blind spot, or maybe a momentary lapse in attention. But if more than one reader makes the same point, then I have a problem … And I have to consider doing something about it.

 4.       Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I take what comes. But I’m not really approaching sample readers or critique group readers for advice on grammar or style. I should be able to do most of that myself – and what I can’t, my professional editors will help tidy up. (For example, when you do or don’t need a comma between side by side adjectives … I don’t really like commas there at all, but there are rules, incredibly arcane, fine-spun rules that I can’t get my mind around. But my current editor can, and I leave it up to her!)

What I want from sample readers and critique group readers are big picture responses on story and character. I think everyone’s opinions count on such things.

5.       Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

The worst thing in the world is to have worked through all the high-level stuff, and then what’s supposed to be low-level stuff starts unravelling the high-level stuff again! That’s happened to me a time or two with professional feedback, and it’s just so unfair! Unfortunately, life for a commercially published author isn’t fair … Shit happens.

I decide the timing for sample readers, so that’s never an issue. But it’s always liable to be an issue with our ROR critique group, because we meet to discuss whole novels about once every eighteen months – it’s great when I have a novel in just the right state for critiquing, but often it’s too far down the track, too fixed and finalized. So unless there’s some really big problem that’s been missed so far by everyone else, I’m looking for feedback on the stage I’m currently at.

 6.        How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I’ve probably answered this already. Horses for courses. A good sample reader is good by being an ordinary, average reader. I don’t look for specialists. For example, my first sample reader, before I ever worry about target audience readers, is Aileen, my wife. She loves crime fiction, but doesn’t have any special affinity for fantasy. So I reckon that if the world I’ve created seems solid and plausible and interesting to her, then it’ll seem solid and plausible and interesting to anyone.

A reader who can give a reason for a response is more of a thinker. Authors and editors read on a sort of double level, on the one hand plunged into the experience of the novel but on the other hand sitting outside it. But the more you sit outside, the more chance of thinking your responses rather than just experiencing them. It’s a trade off. I’ve been very lucky with my editors – and the authors in the ROR group are pretty exceptional people too!

7.       Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Ah, the ground has shifted under my feet! I’m most interested in sample readers – I believe every author and intending author ought to show their work to ordinary readers and get feedback. That’s my strongest recommendation – and something I’ve learned the hard way, after being for many years too proud to show my imperfect work to anyone!

For professional readers, such as editors and publisher’s readers, well, that’s a whole different ball game. I don’t know what training would help – I’d only say, please, never lose grip on simple delight in reading and getting carried away by a story. When I say I’ve been lucky with my editors, that’s exactly what I mean – they’ve none of them lost their freshness, their spontaneity as readers. I’m sure I’d soon be all staled out over the numbers of books they have to read! And I’m too much of an author to ever be an editor – I’d keep wanting to turn someone else’s book into my book. I’d be a total disaster!

Liberator by Richard Harland

Thank you very much Richard. Another interesting and different perspective. I like how you have sample readers, who are more likely to be similar to your audience.

Donna

Today’s interview is with Margo Lanagan, a multi-award winning author, who is just down right nice and fun. Her book Sea Hearts is out by Allen and Unwin. Her website is here. Margo is most active on Twitter @margolanagan.

I’d like to thank Margo for doing the interview.

1. How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

I belong to a novel-critique group called ROR (wRiters On the Rise) which first met in 2001. We meet every 18 months to 2 years, when we all have a decent amount of work to bring to the group. There are 8 people in the group now, including me, but we don’t always have the full complement of members; other commitments or differently-deadlined novels sometimes keep people from attending.

2. In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

The main thing they do is get me unstuck. They’ll let me know where they thought things were going with the story, where they were surprised and how they adjusted their expectations, and how far I fulfilled them. They show me where I’ve overdone or underdone elements of the story; they throw ideas at me about where things might go; they ask me questions which may or may not be answerable, from the very straightforward (How old is this character?) to the impossibly complex (What is the basic point of this magic system?).

3. Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No, but often several of the critiques will chime with each other on several points, letting me know if something really is or really is not working – but then usually there’ll be someone who’ll come out quite strongly against any general tendency! As readers we all like different things, and get irritated by different things; the beauty of this group is the range of viewpoints I get on my work.

3. Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

I take what comes. Mostly I’m curious about anything that their fresh eyes will reveal to me about the work in progress. I want it all, from all of them!

4.Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

I might indicate when I send out the MS that there are certain things bothering me – plot knots that I can’t unravel, motivations that I haven’t nutted out yet – or I might ask for just the biggest, widest-view suggestions about structure and theme and plot possibilities, as I did at the most recent workshop in January.

I’ve never submitted a novel to ROR without having plenty of time afterwards to take on board any suggestions I needed to. I always get such a rich assortment of impressions, questions and suggestions that I like to feel that I’ve properly assessed every bit of input in my subsequent tackling of the work.

I’ve put in to ROR uncontracted work, contracted but not yet urgent work, and novels that were, um, years beyond deadline. Some ROR-ettes have had novels workshopped that are near submission date, and will hold off on acting on the critiques until they get editor feedback as well as ROR feedback, so they can make all their changes at once.

5. How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

I don’t really know. I was lucky, in that Marianne and Rowena approached me when they were putting ROR together. Before that, I would sometimes ask my editor/s at Allen & Unwin to look at something that I knew wasn’t really up for editing yet, just to get another pair of eyes on it.

Nowadays there are several people I might ask if they were available to beta read, as my writers’ network is a bit wider than it was ten and twenty years ago. I would tend to ask for help for a novel that I was finding frustrating in some way, or feeling lost about; my general rule outside of ROR is that I should try and be my own best editor, and dig the answers to my novel issues out of my subconscious somehow, using beta readers only as a last resort.

6. Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

I have a fairly thick hide now, so mainly I want a task list, things-to-fix in order of importance according to the reader’s lights. That said, when I’ve viewed the quantity of work waiting for me, it’s nice if there are a few supportive things to top and tail the critique, just to reassure me that this work is worth doing!

Apart from that, impressions as the reader went through are appreciated, then an overall assessment of the misshapenness or otherwise of the novel, and the kinds of ways I might resolve any issues – characters I might think about changing, ways I might get characters moving (people can sit around doing very little in early drafts of my novels), reordering of events, thematic threads that I might clarify or consider. It’s all good – I like to be peppered with questions that require to be answered in the next draft. Just the spectacle of the reader wondering about and worrying over my story is a heartening thing – drafting a novel is a long and lonely process, and it’s great to have some company before you lock yourself away again with the redraft.

Thank you, Margo, for your perspective. Another interesting view point to add to the series.

Donna

Trudi Canavan has very kindly taken time out of her busy schedule to answer some questions on her use of beta readers in her writing process. I’m happy to say I have beta read a number of manuscripts for Trudi over the years. My daughter is a big fan of Trudi’s and I’m always happy to tell her that I have read the next book before she can even get her hands on it at the book store. Trudi is now working on a new series and ,yes, I have seen a beta version of the final installment in The Traitor Spy Trilogy (she says smugly). Trudi’s website can be found here.

A big thank you to Trudi!

How many beta readers do you have and how long have you used beta readers in your writing process?

I’ve had at least four and maybe as many as ten at a time, for different books over the years. Less now than in the early days.

In what ways do beta readers assist you in developing your novel for publication?

Different readers at different stages help me in different ways. I have always had one or two people reading my books as I wrote them, and from them I learn what readers may think or need to know at different stages of the story, but they don’t bother with typos. Then there are early draft readers, who mainly look for plot points but not typos. Finally, late draft readers look for plot points and check for typos.

Do all your beta readers pick up the same points?

No. I’m always surprised at how one beta reader can pick up a whole different set of typos than another. Of course, if one reader has a particular expertise – say, horses – they will be more likely to see errors in that area. You also have to take personal taste into account. If I have two beta readers who have quite opposite views on something, that’s a good sign that it’s a matter of taste. Then it’s important to have a couple more to see if they favour one side or the other. In these situations my final decision will be whichever suits my taste, because I’m writing for people who have the same taste in books as me. After all, it would be crazy to write for people whose taste was opposite to mine!

Do you sometimes target your beta readers to particular areas based on the experience you had with them in the past? For example, one reader is good at plot holes, another reader is good at grammatical issues and another might be good at style. Or do you take what comes?

Sometimes. I learned early on that when you engage with a new beta reader it is as much a test of them as your book. I’ve had beta readers who weren’t particularly useful. Usually because they didn’t find much, whether because they hesitated to ‘be mean’ or simply didn’t spot the mistakes. Of course, if I have to chase someone too much to get their feedback, or they give me the impression the whole thing is a bit of a trial, I won’t use them again. Or if they are too busy to look at a book early in a series, I may not give them the next book because they won’t be familiar with the story – though it can be useful to see if a book holds up well when a reader hasn’t read the earlier ones

Do you always want the same thing from the beta reader for each novel? For example, when you have deadlines and only have time for high-level feedback?

See my comments on the different stages (question 2)

How hard is it to find a good beta reader?

Not overly hard. I have a lot of friends who are writers, and even more who are readers. I would never use a complete stranger. It’s too much of a risk. If I was that desperate I’d ask my publisher to find me beta readers they felt were trustworthy. That way I’m covered if the beta reader sells my book on eBay

Do you have any advice for readers who want to be beta readers or even editors in the long run? For example, what type of commentary to you prefer?

Don’t spare the author’s feelings. We need you to be mean. On the other hand, if you learn how to be mean in a nice way, it’s more likely you’ll get to be a beta reader again. And it doesn’t hurt to indicate where you think we’re being brilliant, too. It can be useful to know when we’re getting it right, too. All in all, useful comments are what we’re after. Saying ‘this is crap’ is not useful. Saying ‘I don’t think your one-legged character would make that ten metre jump between the rooftops because, well, he has one leg’ would be.

Another interesting insight to the usefulness of beta readers. Thank you again, Trudi. I will try to make sure I make lots of comments in future so you don’t cast me off! Lol!